9 over 7

[tnsolt]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 05, 2005 05:32 PM: Message edited by: shockediddle ]</font>

[Michaud]

I need to make a modification in one thing I wrote. A 5 over 4 combined with a 4 over 3 would rush in the SECOND half, not the first (I was thinking Got-a-Match-Grip was speaking of a 5 over 2). Nevertheless, there is still the same subdivisional problem, albeit considerably less severe. At faster tempos it would sound pretty convincing. At a slower tempo, however, it would still show a lack of consistency in note rate (4 over 3 is faster than 5 over 4--the former would add up to 16 over the course of twelve beats, whereas the latter would be 15 over twelve beats--a slight difference for sure, but a difference none the less.
To offer another analogy: A 4 over 3 would add up to 8 over twelve beats, whereas a 3 over 2 would add up to 6 over eight beats. That's only a two note difference. Yet would it be best to teach a 7 over 5 by combining a 4 over 3 with a 3 over 2? In my humble opinion, no.

Steve Michaud

[got_a_matchgrip]

the true identity of a nine over seven is a nine equally spaced over seven pulses. To use an analogy: we would not call two 16ths and an eighth by the name of a triplet simply because it had three notes occuring in one beat. The reason? The first two notes are being played at a different rate of speed than the last note.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Right you are Stv [in my best Spike-TV MXC show voice].

Subdividing it like the way flarob initially said would result in separate poly's instead of each actual #'d phrase over the other as one phrase of poly...they [it] can't be separated as you would bars of odd-time figures. Because a 5:4 + 4:3 would be exactly just, that - a bar of 5:4 & then a bar of 4:3, & not add up to 9 & [over] 7 due to the differing rates. [I guess i just made redundant your thought ;-)].

I was in fact merely trying to intimate what flarob was saying [ergo; now, 'passing the buck!'] Now, that's what i get for being presumptive, eh? ;-)

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 05, 2005 07:47 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>

[tnsolt]

i've tried a couple of times to post this page online with no luck. if anyone knows how to publish a word document to the internet it would be very helpful, esp since it illustrates my point.

[got_a_matchgrip]

[9:7]...

R's post was also a little vague for me. A language barrier thing, perhaps...

...3:7 is a "piece a' cake." ;-)

Subdividing the "3/4" further into 8th-trips against that is where it gets a little "trippy"... [img]wink.gif[/img]

To further help "see" where this sub'd 9 [of the "3/4" sub'd triplet increments] falls together over the 7/4 on staff-paper, it works out by documentation:

- Further sub'd those 8th-trips within the 7/4 into THEIR own triplet sub-increments, so that now you have sub-increments of 9 between each 1/4 note of the 7/4].

- then counting to every 1st note AFTER each grouping of 7 of those notes [which would include the 1st note] - or the same as saying, "every 1st one after each group of 7" again, as SM said about the initial 7:3 -

[or IOWs, simply, counting every grouping of 7 w/in those 9's]... [img]graemlins/wonder.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thinking.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

(2) Accent every 7th note of the triplet subdivisions, starting with the first.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...In other words. /;-)

Man, i hope some of you can decipher what i just said. But it IS there...
Now that we have your attention [& your eyes are sufficiently crossed!]...

THX 4 your input here, SM. [img]cool.gif[/img]

...& thank you for your time [AWA patience], everyone else... ;-)

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 09, 2005 02:18 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>

[Terry B]

This is a cool thread! Michaud is the man! The question is, how do you get this across musically, (taste wise) without the bass player punching you? [img]rolleyes.gif[/img] Out of respect for Mr. Michaud, I will be "officially" changing my avatar! Hey, at least we both like Curious George, (great minds think alike!!) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

On a side note, all that Weckl-speak in another thread got me watching that "Next Step" vid. On Island Magic there is some NASTY phrasing in his solo. very hip.

One idea i have been playing with (7/8) is putting a triplet over the first two 8ths (3:2) another triplet over the next two (6:4 now) then doing 4:3 on the remaining.

He does this going into the first ensemble kick out of his solo. Nice elastic-y sounding little idea. Have fun peeps!!

Later

[Riddim]

You could do that.

Another, perhaps simpler, approach is to establish a pulse of 7 notes, slowly, with one sound source. Once that's comfortable, play one note in the same space with another limb. Once that?s comfortable, go to 2 notes. Now you have 7 over 2. Once that?s down, go to 3 notes. This gives one 7 over 3.

It's ok; your brain will not implode.

Once this is comfortable, substitute triplets for the quarter notes on the sound source playing 3 notes. Now you are playing 7 over 9.

I've not known anyone to spontaneously combust trying this.

Lately.

Sit on that for a bit and get a sense of how it all feels. Grasp how the accents lay out and internalize it. Experiment with different sound sources on the kit and make something musical out of it.

Remember that just because you can do this is not a license to inflict it upon the unwitting or undeserving. Keep your gig....

[tnsolt]

thanx for the explanation steve.
i went back into the md archive and pete magadini did a few articles on the topic and from i understand u can mathematically manipulating the quarter note in a different time sig. ie 5 over 4 in 4/4 time can be transposed into 4 "pseudo-syncopated" quarter notes in 5/4 time.

the only part i dont get is #4. specifically what time sig is it in? still 7?

[Vdrummer]

I've written out the basic idea. Seeing the way it all looks should help you understand the idea. I also added a version with the bass drum playing quarters, which may not have been mentioned, but which should make it easier to hear and comprehend. I'll leave it up for a few days. Enjoy!

Brad


http://homepage.mac.com/polyostinato/

[djbkxr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">code:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><pre>
Snare: |RllRllR|llRllRl|lRllRll|
Bass : |x |x |x |
</pre></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

whats after that? kind of confused.